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Chivalry is what

Chivalry is what

Tue, 02/23/2010 - 15:51 by Ananth in response to chivalry i guess

I always offer to carry things for Yuko, but if she wants to carry it on her own, I don't argue! I think a part of chivalry ought to be that you actually listen to a lady. But it's gotten me no end of advice on how to treat a lady from the guys on the block and in the neighborhood, and so I'm trapped between Yuko and street wisdom. Actually, I was surprised - some of the things these guys have said has been remarkably old-fashioned, which in its own way is a little charming. One day I'm going to sit down with one of these guys so I can get the the full chivalry manual.

It's again a busy week! I've been designing t-shirts for Applegeeks and doing a lot of research and prep for the Johnny Wander book (lots of organizing etc. to do), and Yuko's chugging away on thumbnails for the graphic novel we're working on with Oni Press. It goes! See you Thursday, guys!

Comments

Nice!

Comment by Cid (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 15:58

Refreshed, and heres a new comic!

Awesome!

Well, you live in NYC, maybe

Comment by Anonymous (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 15:59

Well, you live in NYC, maybe they don't like the idea of ladies being clipped by bullets.

Toss up? Not really...

Comment by Lancer2010 (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:00

Being thought of as a jerk, or angry girlfriend?

I'd rather be thought of as a jerk.

Audrey is the same way!

Comment by Jamie Noguchi (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:07

Audrey is the same way! Actually, I think I totally turned off a girl by being too chivalrous. First date, I opened the car door for her, the door to the movie, all that shit. She finally got exasperated and said, "You know, I can open my own door." total fail.

Ugh

Comment by Razor (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 20:51

Being independent is one thing. Allowing a guy to be polite is another.

I fear that the women of my generation (I'm 36) have shot ourselves in the foot (feet?). We moan about how guys are jerks and then say "I can open my own door."

My arrangement is pretty good. The hubs carries stuff upstairs for me, but I go ahead of him with the key. He wants it that way. Okay by me--but it did take getting used to (I would protest, "wha, my leg's not broken, gimme some of that stuff, it's heavy").

I've always hated

Comment by ~L.K. (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 03:22

I've always hated hypocritical things like "Oh, I can carry my own bags," then getting pissed when nobody asks to help. Mean what you say!

I'm a woman and I hold doors for people a lot, because, frankly, its polite. I don't care what gender, age, or race you are. (Although I once held it open for someone in a wheelchair and got a major glare from him. I understand that he was thinking that I opened it for him because of his disability, but he was right behind me. Since then, I've avoided doors and disabled people--unless they actually are having a problem.) Usually whoever gets to the door open first is the one who opens it. We have races, even. My bags are usually pretty heavy, so when my fiance asks if he can carry them, I hand them off happily. It's his own fault for asking.

Sorry guys ;P

Comment by bevam (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 00:14

Haha, sorry guys- the minute a dude opens a door for me (unless he is in front of me and/ or I have an armload of heavy things), it's *over*. Apparently I am not the only one who feels this way! I guess it's girls and not guys who are killing chivalry?

And here it's the opposite.

Comment by Ragu (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 09:51

And here it's the opposite. If he wants to, I'm not going to argue. If he doesn't, that's fine too, but I prefer it for a formal evening out, just as I prefer holding his hand while we walk. It's something I've talked about with my dates in the past.

If someone doesn't like it, then it's something to talk about. Not snark or yell, because you may be missing going out with a wonderful guy, and communication is the basis of all relationships. :)

You are a wise one.

Comment by Chuck (not verified) Thu, 02/25/2010 - 04:12

You are a wise one.

Inside of the street....

Comment by WT6X (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:09

It's more of a practical matter. In places like Britain where it rain o so often, walking close to the street will get you wet. I bet you have at least once gotten splashed by a passing car or something.

Exactly. Thus, NYC's version

Comment by Anonymous (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:23

Exactly. Thus, NYC's version of chivalry is so your girlfriend won't be shot during gunfire exchange from gang fights.

Or killed by a crazy driver.

Comment by Anonymous (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 15:53

Or killed by a crazy driver. XD

actually the reason women

Comment by Anonymous (not verified) Thu, 02/25/2010 - 00:51

actually the reason women walk close to the building is because back in ye old days there wasn't much plumbing and so people used bedpans. and since there was no sewage for plumbing, people would throw the contents from their bedpans out the window. so that's why men would walk on the outside to prevent women from getting covered in sewage. it is even in Romeo and Juliet that only weak women walk close to the wall, so more power to yuko for being a strong women, just watch out for bedpans

Aww, that's kinda sweet,

Comment by Jeanine (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:10

Aww, that's kinda sweet, even if she doesn't let you do it for her. Every now and then some guy at my school holds my door for me, but that's all the chivalry I get.

You should see her arms.

Comment by Rosscott (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:13

I offer once to help. Then it's on her, not me. Not to mention, my gf is stronger than me.

The Trick

Comment by OrangeKnight (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:14

The Trick to Chivalry is being proactive!

She don't want you to carry something for fer? Grab it before she does and don't let go!

Seconded.

Comment by Robert V Aldrich (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 22:12

Seconded.

Um, no. That's the trick to

Comment by Anonymous (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 02:37

Um, no. That's the trick to pissing her off. The trick to real chivalry is -listening- to her; if she'd appreciate the gesture, go ahead! If she's made it clear she DOESN'T WANT YOU TO, why is it so hard to just not do it?

The flip-side of 'chivalry'

Comment by Magnetic Crow (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:17

The flip-side of 'chivalry' is that most of the rules are designed around the assumption that women are weaker, more fragile, and more vulnerable.

Walk near the road so that the lady doesn't get mud thrown on her/clipped by a car. Carry bags because she's too weak/lazy to do so. Pay the check because the assumption is that women make less money than men, or no money of their own at all.

This is personally why I dislike it. I know most guys don't think of it this way, but chivalry is really designed to place emphasis on stereotypical weaknesses in women. Some women don't mind this at all, or even like it, but some of us resent being treated as if we're inferior to men in any way, or even different at all.

I'm a pretty strong girl. I can carry my own stuff. I can carry a guy's stuff too, if he needs help. There's no shame in this.

Actually it's much more

Comment by Joseph (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:58

Actually it's much more complex than that. The Laws of Chivalry are actually a guideline for medieval knights on how to behave. They're also sometimes called The Ten Commandments of Chivalry because there are 10 of them. The one that you're sighting is number 3. Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and constitute thyself the defender of them. While this comes into play the one that is the basis for polite behaviour to women is number 9. Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone. So when a guy grabs the check at the restaurant he's being generous, same goes with walking near the street or carrying a bag. The real basic one is holding the door for the person behind you. Point here being the reasoning behind it isn't that women are weak but that gentlemen are obliged to uphold the dictates of christendom which is how they came up with these rules in the first place.

I apologize for bad

Comment by Joseph (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 17:00

I apologize for bad spelling, the rule that you're citing, not sighting.

I'm curious, where did you

Comment by Robert V Aldrich (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 22:19

I'm curious, where did you come across the Ten Commandments of Chivalry? I know the Oath has gone through re-inventions throughout history, but that's something I haven't seen.

The origins of Chivalry (as I learned them anyway) could be traced back to a training manual written for Roman Cavalry. It dictated their behavior on and off the battefield and was amalgamated into early mounted warriors' (ie early knights)training.

Just google The Laws of

Comment by Joseph (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 16:10

Just google The Laws of Chivalry and it pops up a nice page full of sites. I first did it about 5 years ago on a whim and then I actually had a class with a full blown discussion of them.

There are other interpretations...

Comment by Jonathan B (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 18:46

The origin of walking on the street side of the sidewalk actually goes back to early England, and those interesting little houses with the upper story that juts out over the road. Garbage, particularly food scraps, was tossed out of the upper window into the center of the street in the days before pickup service. So the gentleman walked on the outside so that if the garbage was going to fall on someone, it would be him. I can't think of any guy worth anything who'd rather his girl get garbage dumped on her than himself. ;)

Coming from the South, I was trained to open doors for women, and had to explain this to a Californian friend about her Southern-born boyfriend. It isn't that you're not capable of opening doors, at least for a rightly bred gentleman. It's that a sign of respect is opening the door to allow the other to enter first. We do it for the elderly, as a sign of respect, and for social betters. You have the priority of place to enter first. I don't know about elsewhere, but in the Southern culture it's part of demonstrating the respect and value you place upon the other person.

If you know that most guys "don't think this way", then aren't you putting words in their mouth, in effect, to take it differently than how they mean it?

I'm aware that women have functioning bicep muscles, etc. And I don't force a woman to let me open the door if that's against her wishes. So Yuko not wanting it does not make Ananth not a gentleman, since he offers and she declines. But a gentleman should offer, because it's what gentlemen do.

I was going to mention the

Comment by ~L.K. (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 03:31

I was going to mention the reason for the road-walking thing, but glad to see someone else knows it! There's a definitely good reason for it. I'll usually walk inbetween parked cars and my fiance in parking lots, since he's so much taller than I am.

I appreciate it when someone asks to hold my bags for me because it's nice! Sure I can hold my own bags, but do I want to?

If you're entering a door and someone is behind you, it's easier for them if you hold it open, rather than it slamming in their face. As for holding car doors open, its sort of amusing and fun. My friends and I make it a game to see who can be more chivalrous.

There are some things I definitely have trouble doing--like opening lids on cans or reaching high things. It's nice when someone asks to do it, since then I don't have to ask.

"Coming from the South, I

Comment by Anonymous (not verified) Wed, 02/16/2011 - 01:38

"Coming from the South, I was trained to open doors for women, and had to explain this to a Californian friend about her Southern-born boyfriend. It isn't that you're not capable of opening doors, at least for a rightly bred gentleman. It's that a sign of respect is opening the door to allow the other to enter first. We do it for the elderly, as a sign of respect, and for social betters. You have the priority of place to enter first. I don't know about elsewhere, but in the Southern culture it's part of demonstrating the respect and value you place upon the other person."

So what I'm getting here is that you open doors for women because they are your social betters/more valuable/worthy of respect than you? =/
What people don't get about feminism... real, honest feminism, because most of the time it's corrupted when people discuss the idea... is that it's not about men or women being better or worse than each other. The goal is equality. Total equality, in every way. And that means not putting women on a pedestal, because it that's your reason for being "chivalrous", that's what you're doing. Why can't everyone just be PEOPLE and not men or women?
Being civil is great. It makes perfect sense to open a door for someone who happens to be behind you because they're a person, and it's a nice thing to do. But don't do it because they're a woman.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it

Comment by Eleanor (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 18:58

"chivalry is really designed to place emphasis on stereotypical weaknesses in women"

As a lady, I don't find a problem with gentlemen holding the doors open for the opposite sex, or carrying her bags for her. It's a sign of respect, not sympathy for their "weakness" or "inferiority." When a gentleman is chivalrous towards a lady, its not because he's putting her in her place, it's just his way of saying he respects her.

I can't speak for all women, and while I certainly don't want to be treated as "inferior to men in any way," I don't mind being treated differently, when that means being treated with honor.

I definitely second this -

Comment by Eriss (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 17:35

I definitely second this - I believe chivalry is a sign of respect, and I feel good when a guy respects me enough to open the door for me, help me out with heavy objects (which is good because I am rather a tiny person), or insists on footing the bill (though if it's not a date, I'd rather go dutch).

The women who think chivalry is ENTIRELY designed to emphasize the inferiority of women need to get over it and enjoy the perks of chivalry (who really wants to open their own door anyway?)

At least... those are the simple things.. silly things like throwing one's coat down over a muddy puddle for a lady to cross, or picking a fight with another gentleman for even farting or belching in said lady's direction (though these sights would be amusing)... are SO out of vogue, and I would agree that THESE things put more emphasis on the "fragility" of women, than opening the stupid door for another person (which isn't always gender-based, it's also age-based, friend-based, child/parent-based... basically you open the frickin' door for someone else that you respect or because it's the NICE thing to do!)

..... I hate it when people slam the door in my face.

:P

Comment by Denis (not verified) Thu, 02/25/2010 - 00:56

THIS is why I dont practice chivalry. people bloody well take advantage. Instead I practice common courtesy, much simpler, and a lot more people are pleasantly surprised by someone willing to hold a door open for anyone. Judging action based on the sex of a person is not only backward, it prevents the flourishment of equality to its full potential, as well as the potential for cultural values. opening a jar for someone weaker than you are is understandable. Giving up your seat on the bus for someone thrice your age is bloody well laudable. Opening a door for someone or refusing to split the bill for reasons of sexual differentiation is bullshit, however. a) there is no true reason for the differentiation in behaviour and b) because of a) this is subjecting yourself to being taken advantage of for no reason. ex: buying a girl a drink: there is no sadder thing to see than a girl who goes to the bar and doesnt even need to bring her purse because guy after guy will buy her a drink, and then she will leave them standing there.

PS

Comment by Anonymous (not verified) Thu, 02/25/2010 - 00:59

this is for everyone, btw, there is a big difference between gender and sex. the definition of gender can change from culture to culture (i.e. there are some native american cultures with 4 genders, 2 for men and 2 for women), whereas sex is constant. Read an anthropology book if you want to learn more

Yes...but...

Comment by Chris D. (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 22:22

Admittedly, this is all societal pressures. In a lot of cases, women do expect this to (at least around here). I hold open doors for women because it's what I was raised to do. I call women "ma'am" no matter how old they are because...well, I was raised that way too. I offer to help anyone who looks like they need the help because it's the right thing to do.

That said, if you're juggling a chainsaw with four 50 lb weights, I'm not gonna ask if you need help.

Basic chivalry litmus for me is: if you think it helps them, offer. Give them the chance to turn you down, and move on if they do. The best reply to someone who does something like that is "Thank you, but I've got it."

Don't be rude to us poor guys trying to help...it won't stop us anyway and just makes us feel sad. ^_^

Wait a minute. . .

Comment by Big Boss (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:18

They knew she was a lady?

I always confuse people,

Comment by Seri (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:24

I always confuse people, because I'm female and will apparently display male acts of chivalry: I open doors for people, let others pass through ahead of me, offer to carry things for people (they usually decline and reverse that on me because they think small = not strong, pffftt) etc. It's just a habit I guess.

Transitive chivalry

Comment by Caitlin (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:48

Yes, exactly. Sure I appreciate it when a guy holds the door open for me, but I will hold the door open for a guy as well! That way, it's not some girl/guy asymmetry, but just a chance for everybody to be nice to everybody else.

And yeah, I love the "chivalry standoffs" where I try to offer a guy the door and he tries to get it back from me. Or when we both go for the door at once. So awkward. (This happened like half a dozen times with my father-in-law in one night -- he kept trying to be a gentleman, and I kept messing it up!)

That sounds more like

Comment by Fork (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:57

That sounds more like civility not chivalry. Which EVERYONE should follow regardless of sex.

This is what should replace chivalry.

Yes, that's exactly it. If

Comment by Adam Olsen (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 21:58

Yes, that's exactly it. If I'm the first to the door I'll often hold it for the group because it's *quicker*. Then for the next door (often have double doors here in edmonton) someone else will hold it for the group, including me. It has nothing to do with weakness or paying homage, but rather to simple efficiency and practicality. If I see someone in a wheelchair I'll stick around a little longer to keep the door open, but since I expect they can still get in themselves this is only because it may take them an extra 5 seconds while costing me a mere 1 second.

Same thing with carrying stuff. If their hands are full I'll offer. If they ask for help I'll gladly do so. Otherwise, let them build their own muscles.

If there's one thing I dislike...

Comment by Ramiel (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:27

its holding certain items for a lady (i.e. her hand carry or purse). That really makes the situation look very awkward D':

I agree.

Comment by Lancer2010 (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 17:25

I always remember having to grab/hold my mom's purse as a kid, and feeling weird.

My best friend always had

Comment by ~L.K. (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 03:35

My best friend always had super cutesy handbags. One of her favorites is a TokiDoki bag. Her father, being the gentleman that he is, often asks to hold her things, so he there is always this tall, prim, doctor holding an absolutely frilly, girl-y bag--even more often alone as she usually runs off everywhere.

I think chivalry is a gender

Comment by Adam (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:54

I think chivalry is a gender based form of respect, meaning chivalry is how men respect women because they are women. I'm not particularly clear on what women would do to return the favor, but I think Ananth is right saying that it is more respectful to listen to the lady than to do everything for her no matter what.

www.artofmanliness.com is a website that has good discussions involving issues like this.

Handle it respectfully, I

Comment by Ragu (not verified) Wed, 02/24/2010 - 09:59

Handle it respectfully, I suppose. Say "thank you" or remember to smile. It's just one of those social things when it does come up, like returning a handshake.

It's very much like returning a handshake. How either party handles it speaks volumes about their character.

gender not being the issue

Comment by Denis (not verified) Thu, 02/25/2010 - 01:02

if you want to present a solid argument, learn the difference between gender and sex. It is listed above under "PS". your comment fails using the terms you are

I appreciate the offers, I

Comment by Sam (a girl) (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 17:17

I appreciate the offers, I really do. I just get annoyed with the slightly frantic tone of "CAN I CARRY THAT FOR YOU" when I am carrying a Big Thing. Really, it didn't crush me when I first picked it up so it's probably not going to harm me now.

I was taught that whoever gets to the door first should open it, or at least make sure that it doesn't whack into whoever's behind you. Less gender-directed and more general Southern Manners.

Book?

Comment by Kimmik (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 17:18

Prep for a Johnny Wander book? Wow, I'm excited!

I feel you man

Comment by TerenceF (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 17:25

My girlfriend is also pretty tiny and wants to do stuff herself. People see a small girl carrying a lot of stuff and they immediately get mad at the dude she is with.

The whole manual?

Comment by Tanshin (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 17:37

It's at the Art Of Manliness.

www.artofmanliness.com

They have most of the manual. It's added to every few days or so.

So I definitely do that. My

Comment by Lupus Draconis (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 17:45

So I definitely do that. My boyfriend and I get into these fun little bouts where we open doors for each other and the other won't go through first. It occasionally ends in shoving matching which always earns us some very strange looks. Good times.

Cripes.

Comment by SBKT (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 17:46

Yuko seems intimidating here. But if those photos advertising the shirts do include her, then she's jelly-cute.

It just seems so big a difference, it shouldn't be physically possible.

As for chivalry, most of it should be raised anyways. If you're a guy and taught to open doors, good for you. If you're a girl and taught to do it, that's excellent, take pride in your ability to embarass men as it would be impolite to take the door from you.

Tiny can be dangerous

Comment by Jonathan B (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 18:50

I have a dear friend who is 4'8". Sweetest girl in the world. But she is a little terrier....terribly fierce when she takes a mind to be.

To quote Yoda: "Size matters

Comment by Lancer2010 (not verified) Tue, 02/23/2010 - 19:04

To quote Yoda:

"Size matters not."